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Traveller-digest            Monday, 15 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 254

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Pop Culture in Traveller
         2. Re: Southern Living
         3. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
         4. favorite quotes
         5. Re: Starship Construction
         6. Re: Southern Living
         7. Don Perrin at Phenomenon
         8. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
         9. ID4: Spoiler Warning
        10. Re: favorite quotes
        11. Re: Fighters in Space
        12. Re: favorite quotes
        13. Re: Starship Construction
        14. Re: Starship Construction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:23:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Traveller

"Stewart Eyres" said:

>
>>If you think Shakespeare is junk culture, I may be gravely offended...
>
>Of course Shakespeare *was* junk (or at least pop) culture, to a large
>degree, when it was written.  It is only centuries of perspective and
>changed ideas that make it "classic", or whatever other label of
>respectability you wish to assign it.

It may have been closer to what we call pop culture, but seldom junk culture.

>Much of Shakespeare was smutty,
>or needlessly violent, or racist, or anti-semitic, etc., which are all
>the charges thrown at much of junk/pop culture today.  However,
>somehow it survived, and now we put it on a pedestal.

Even though the theater-going experience was quite different than it is
today, Shakespeare was already on a pedastal in the late 1500s. Heck, it's
said Queen Elizabeth wanted him to write "The Merry Wives of Windsor"
because she wanted to see Falstaff in love. The
violence/racism/anti-semitism are what WE label aspects of his works, not
what they were labelled in his day. I doubt if many Londoners boycotted
"The Merchant of Venice" because of its portrayal of Shylock.


>"Starting tonight, the classic `Carry On up the Kyber', an Imperial
>Carry On Company production in three acts, examining the political and
>military importance of the Kyber Pass on ancient Terra. - Capital
>Stage & Theatre 150-1026"
>
>...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothing
>of British pop culture.

Well, I'd probably put the Carry On movies on the same level as corn dogs,
but then, I'm a vegetarian. :-) Will "Carry On Doctor" become the "Hamlet"
of 2500 AD? Lord help us all. But at least something like a "Carry On"
referrence in TNE would have ballanced some of the other 20th century
American referrences.

(Yes, I know the Python referrences are British. But I think - if they HAD
to include them - they should have found something as obscure to us as corn
dogs are to many other cultures).

Now, If they had included some GOON SHOW referrences, I'd have been
impressed. :-)

John Kovalic
Madison, WI



******************************************************************
"This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                                     - Arthur Dent
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*                 "Wild Life": a Web comic --                    *
*       MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/    *
******************************************************************




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:28:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Southern Living

On 15 Jul 96 at 2:16, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> >>BTW, do you know what that white stuff in Twinkies or between the
> >>cookies in an Oreo really is?  That's the stuff that'll keel ya! <g>

Actually Twinkies are a form of plant life from another planet.  They are 
eaten live, which would explain why Twinkies seem to last for years.  
When King Tut's Pyramid was unearthed, they found a corpse, tons of 
jewelry and ornaments, and a box of Twinkies.  They were labelled 
"Sell By June 4, 446 BC."  The explorer happily pulled open the box 
of Twinkies, found them to be fresh, and ate them...

There are rumors that Grandfather actually geneered Twinkies, as he 
wanted to have something to eat that would not go bad under any 
circumstances...  

When the Final War began, Grandfather launched the first blows not 
with nuclear devices, or with warbots, but by orbital bombardment.  
He took 0.1 cm twinkies out of the wrapper, and dropped them on 
several of the homeworlds of his children...those not killed by the 
resulting impact were left with nothing but Twinkies to eat...

Yum...think I'm going to go buy some Twinkies and corn dogs right 
now... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:31:49 -0800
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

On 15 Jul 96 at 12:05, Stewart Eyres spewed:

> Hi there
> 
> "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
> 
> >If you think Shakespeare is junk culture, I may be gravely offended...
> 
> Of course Shakespeare *was* junk (or at least pop) culture, to a large
> degree, when it was written.  It is only centuries of perspective and
> changed ideas that make it "classic", or whatever other label of
> respectability you wish to assign it.  Much of Shakespeare was smutty,
> or needlessly violent, or racist, or anti-semitic, etc., which are all
> the charges thrown at much of junk/pop culture today.  However,
> somehow it survived, and now we put it on a pedestal.

Granted, it was popular culture at the time...but remember that 
popular culture of the 16th-17th century is not quite the same thing 
as that of the 20th century.  There would have been tons of people in 
Britain who'd never heard of Shakespeare when he died, let alone seen 
1 of his plays...  However, the bulk of your points are valid.

I guess I'm truly afraid that the only thing the 20th century is 
going to be remembered for is Calvin and Hobbes.  I'd like to think 
that our century has more to offer...maybe I'm kidding myself.  

Not certain that Bach was ever pop culture though.  He wrote a lot of 
the stuff for the cathedral that he worked in, and was a court 
composer, if I'm not mistaken...hardly work for the masses, although 
many may have heard    

> "Starting tonight, the classic `Carry On up the Kyber', an Imperial
> Carry On Company production in three acts, examining the political and
> military importance of the Kyber Pass on ancient Terra. - Capital
> Stage & Theatre 150-1026"
> 
> ...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothing
> of British pop culture.

Other than that which makes it to the other side of the pond, I'm not 
likely to...

Just as I'm sure that there are elements of American pop culture that 
may be incomprehensible to you...  Hell, to be honest, some of them 
are incomprehensible to me... ;-)

Kind of leads me to another interesting debate.  What elements of 
popular culture would survive as art from the 20th century?

Stu
   
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:38:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: favorite quotes

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Paul Walker wrote:
> > 
> > >To paraphrase Jeff Goldblum from Jurasic Park.
> > >
> > >"You were so busy trying to figure out how to do it that no one bother to
> > >stop and think whether they should be doing it at all."
> > 
> > I know this is way off topic, but I think this is one(probably second) of my
> > all time favorite lines from a movie.  BTW, I think it applies incredibly
> > well to Virus.
> > 
> > As a side note, those of you who have kids will appreciate my favorite line:
> > 
> > >From the mother in "Honey I blew up the Kid":
> > 
> > "There's one thing that every kid knows, dads mean fun, but momma means
> > business!!"
> > Let's not forget.
> 
> "You came in that?  You're braver than I thought."
> 
> That's my personal favorate.  8)
> 
> Derek Stanley
> 

I always liked "Laugh it up, fuzzball"

Pete 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 07:46:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Construction

On 15 Jul 96 at 3:42, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In somewhere mysterious you write:
> 
> > On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Charles Pratt wrote:
> >> And a self-help book entitled _How to Suspend Your Disbelief_.
> >
> > If we made Traveller as realistic as possible - meaning that there were 
> > no obvious holes in the setting, technology, etc. - would it still be fun?
> 
> If we did it *right* it would be.

Not for too many of your players.  Pretty soon you'd wind up having 
1000 page rule books, devoting a voluminous number of pages to explanation 
of a pseudo-scientific concept that currently is impossible using present 
day physics.  It doesn't matter how much time, volume of pages, or 
money you poor at it, the thing is called science FICTION...

Suspension of disbelief does have to come into play somewhere.  Jump 
drive, Maneuver drive (thrusters or HEPlaR), meson guns, PAWs, don't 
exist...  They probably won't exist in our lifetimes...if ever...

If you don't suspend disbelief somewhere...think about what you have 
left...  present day guns, missiles, vehicles...landbound on 1 
system...because there is no effective means currently for getting to 
Mars, let alone Alpha Centauri...  We don't even have the 
technology to establish a colony on the moon...

As for simulating an economic system good luck!  No 2 economists 
can really design an economic model that simulates a world economy 
effectively, and agree on it...  I remember an old joke about 2
economists trying to design a Trivial Pursuit game based on 
economics.  They came up with a game that had 3000 questions, and 
about 12,000 right answers...

As with anything, you need to write an explanation that sounds 
halfway plausible, and at some point you as a referee, and the player 
have to take the rest on faith...

> That means that we get all the phsyics, economics etc worked out so we
> can stick in "reasonable" costs and performance figures, but we don't
> have to beat the players over the head with the details. It's like the
> multi-level design system, as long as the simplified stuff is
> *compatible* with the complex stuff, the only problem is that you lose
> some "subtle" possibilities.

As with all things, it is for the players in conjunction with the 
referee to balance realism vs. playability...  The good news is that 
the Traveller system has in the past (and would appear to be doing in 
the future) allowed you to choose to a certain extent...

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Southern Living

Actually, what we now call the Twinkie was originally known as the
Tw'Knee, and was a sacred food of a little known Sumerian Sect about 6000
years ago.  It was said that the original Tw'Knee had fallen from the
heavens, so maybe this Grandfather theory of Stu's isn't that far off
track...

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: David Jaques-Watson <davidjw@pcug.org.au>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:54:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Don Perrin at Phenomenon

Dear Folks -

Well, I met the man on the weekend, while he was at Phenomenon. He and 
Margaret "Dragonlance" Weis were invited over as special guests to the 
convention. Unfortunately, I only had an hour to talk to him (I think it 
may have been a new experience for Margaret. I assume that *she* usually 
gets the groupies, rather than Don! Sorry I didn't have more time to talk 
with you both).

I took along my *Martian Metals* tank, grav APC, and air/raft (yeah, am I 
a groupie or what?). He didn't remember having seen the grav APC before 
(Loren told this list that not even MM has one of these! This may explain 
the RCVG pictures). He also saw some of my grav tanks and APCs, lead 
miniatures imported from the UK (when I find the details, I'll post them 
here. An importer in Melbourne supplies Oz, but BITS should be able to 
get them directly). Finally, I was able to give him some reading material 
for his return flight - the results of Marc's "Whither Traveller?" 
survey, the 1201 Tavonni RICE Paper, and a complete list of everyone's 
Web pages - I've saved up all of your details, guys and girls, so maybe 
some more links will appear at IG's link page.

Don was at Phenomenon to run demo games of his *Wing Commander* card game 
(co-authored w/Jeff Grubb) and his own *Star of the Guardians* tactical 
card game. When I met him, he was running a game of *Silent Death*, with 
lead miniatures (bet those caused excess baggage!). BTW, in the game I 
watched, two fighters took out a *large* ship each. This is one game
where fighters are useful!

I really liked the "map" - a black cloth overlayed with 
*Battletech*-style hexes, plus other spots of colour and (what I assume 
is) a nebula. This very striking battle map is available from the 
*Battletech* people (FASA?); basically, is is a space version of their 
standard map.

Don told me he is very impressed with the level of support for 
*Traveller*. He is most impressed with the amount of effort that 
_players_ have contributed to T4 - especially given the short (read 
_miniscule_) time-frame. He and David Golden are planning to upgrade FF&S 
(yay!), probably over a longer period than IG was able to allow for QSDS 
and SSDS.

The original reason for suggesting that Book2 and Book5 be used is this: 
_High Guard_ sold 200,000 copies. _Megatraveller_ sold 20,000 copies. TNE 
(including FF&S) sold 2,000 copies. Each rules set dropped an order of 
magnitude in sales! Admittedly, these were also sold in different 
role-playing eras - there was much less competition when "the little 
black books" were released. However, these figures should tell you 
something of the dilemma facing IG - they need to win over or win back a 
solid customer support base. All the more reason to encourage local games 
stores to stock T4, I say!

Apparently, everything is at the printers. Oh - and one mystery solved! I 
asked the question (previously posted on this list): "why 96 pages?" The 
answer is, yes, this *is* a magic number. Printers print multiple pages 
on large paper sheets called "forms". These sheets are then folded and 
cut along the edge to produce individual leaves, ready for binding. 
Leaves generally hold multiples of 16 pages, ie. 16, 32, 64, 128, etc. 
Now, 32 + 64 = 96 pages. Keeping the number of pages down to what can 
easily be printed on one or two "forms" saves money.

Before I left, we headed down to see the *Bridge Crew* scenario - "The 
Prophecy". *Bridge Crew* is a computer-aided RPG, written by some folks 
from _Mithril Software_ (based in Queanbeyan, near Canberra). Basically, 
a couple of fast PC's run a number of dumb terminals plus a TV display 
("put it on screen, Mr Data"). The terminals are set up as Phasers, 
Torpedoes, Navigation, Damage Control, Science, etc. On screen, your 
immediate surrounds are displayed - your ship, the friendly transport 
ships you are supposed to be defending, the enemy ships intent on blowing 
you up, nearby planets to run into, and so on. The software has been 
expanded so that it now allows multiple friendly ships - which is what 
this scenario was about. Two ships are sent off to a remote outpost, in 
search of a 150-year-old prophecy - and that's all I know! The "crews" 
were in two separated rooms, communicating via an intercom ("open hailing 
frequencies, Mr Worf!").

And finally, congratulations to Don and Margaret. They are set to marry 
later this year (September?). I think I can speak on behalf of "us fans" 
in wishing you all the best. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity".


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:53:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

>From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav
>
>Hi there
>
>"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> said:
>
>>If you think Shakespeare is junk culture, I may be gravely offended...
>
>Of course Shakespeare *was* junk (or at least pop) culture, to a large
>degree, when it was written.  It is only centuries of perspective and
>changed ideas that make it "classic", or whatever other label of
>respectability you wish to assign it.  Much of Shakespeare was smutty,
>or needlessly violent, or racist, or anti-semitic, etc., which are all
>the charges thrown at much of junk/pop culture today.  However,
>somehow it survived, and now we put it on a pedestal.

This is also true of many of the works of Motzart!  And of course, we all
know it is true of the much praised works of P.D.Q. Bach!!!


>"Starting tonight, the classic `Carry On up the Kyber', an Imperial
>Carry On Company production in three acts, examining the political and
>military importance of the Kyber Pass on ancient Terra. - Capital
>Stage & Theatre 150-1026"
>
>...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothing
>of British pop culture.

OK, I'll bite.  I know nothing of British pop culture.  What is the Kyber pass?


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:53:17 -0500
Subject: ID4: Spoiler Warning

>From: Matthew Harelick <matth@interactive.net>
>Subject: ID4: Spoiler Warning
>
>> 
>> From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
>> Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 08:48:21 -0500
>> Subject: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
>> 
>> OK, I finally went to see ID4, so you can talk about it and it wont upset me!
>> 
>> **SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER WARNING*****SPOILER
WARNING**
>> 
>> I have a question for the physics types in our midst.  Would that plane
>> really have done that to the ship like in the end of the movie?  Is the
>> laser focal array that good of a target?
>> 
>> 
>> Paul  {tiger}
>
>Why can't you just enjoy a movie without worrying about reality. I can 
>point out lots of problems with being able to hack into an alien ship's
>computer system too if I wanted to . 
>
>However I am content to say "Its a summer movie" and simply enjoy it.

I'm sorry if I'm out of line here, but this really ticks me off!!!  I never
said a thing about what I thought about the movie!  I never said a thing
about whether the "reality" in question!  The possibility of a woman and her
child and her dog surviving an explosion coming through the tunnel without
entering her little cubby hole is completely out of the question!  I thought
the movie was excellent.  I'm actually considering seeing it again before it
leaves the theater (something I've never done before).  I will definitely
purchase the video.

My point above was just a simple question to see if that was realistic for
traveller.  I think the movie was not a traveller-esque movie, but I do see
benefits of this movie for discussion here on TML!  I'm sorry for you if all
you do is "say "Its a summer movie" and simply enjoy it."  I try to use all
of my experiences to learn something if I can.  This movie had things in it
that I had no idea whether it was possible, so I simply asked a question to
expand my mind.  Maybe you should try this!

Sorry everyone for posting this to the list, but it really ticked me off!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:00:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: favorite quotes

Though good quotes, my favorite Han Solo quote is:

"Its not my fault!  Its not my fault...."

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:01:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Fighters in Space

On 14 Jul 96 at 11:12, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In somewhere mysterious you write:
> 
> Not quite true. Modern anti-ship missiles are designed to go after
> modern ships. The Exocet that badly damaged the HMS Sheffield wouldn't
> do much of anything to the New Jersey or the Iowa.

Yeah, but a 100 aircraft launching a couple hundred Exocets?  There 
won't be enough of the New Jersey or Iowa left to send home in a 
shoebox.  The battleships were not reactivated for any purpose other 
than shore bombardment, from what I understand.  True, the Tomahawks 
make them a deadlier weapon than they would be with just the 16" 
guns...but there are a lot cheaper anti-ship platforms to operate 
than the Iowa...

As a matter of fact, the cost of building a battleship is probably 
the single biggest argument against anybody ever building another 
one.  With the cost of building a modern warship being very high, 
it's easier and cheaper to build a half dozen cheap unarmored 
guided-missile cruisers than to build a 1990's era version of the 
Iowa (and you'd wind up with more firepower doing so as well).

The US just happened to have them mothballed, and thought it could be 
useful to use them again...  Nobody was really paying attention, but 
the day of the heavily armored dreadnought died in the 1930's.  It 
just took a few battles (Taranto, Cape Matapan, Pearl Harbor, Midway, 
etc...) for everybody to realize it... Its doubtful any ship could 
hold up against an enemy with air superiority...for long anyways...

> At some point it's going to sink in that we are far more likely to be
> fighting people with Exocets than with nuclear weapons. And thus, we
> should go back to armoring at least *some* ships well enough to survive
> such.

Actually, there are a number of theorists I've read who tend to 
believe that the day of the surface warship is almost done, that in 
an era of satellite and aerial long range reconnaissance, that it is 
going to be increasingly difficult for any warship that can't hide to 
survive.  Then again we really haven't seen a blue water ocean 
campaign in the classical sense since Japan surrendered.  

> The really big problem in Traveller is that there's nothing to hide
> behind. No horizon, no clouds, and it never gets dark. It's one *hell*
> of a lot harder to "sneak up" on someone to make that quick dash into
> firing range.

Got a good point here, Leonard...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Scott Galliand <galliand@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:12:04 -0500
Subject: Re: favorite quotes

Tom Ellis wrote:
> 
> Though good quotes, my favorite Han Solo quote is:
> 
> "Its not my fault!  Its not my fault...."
> 
> ___________________________________________________
____
> Tom Ellis
> tellis@telerama.lm.com
> http://www.lm.com/~tellis/
> 
> "No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
> ___________________________________________________
____

Gee, are we hinting at the future of the Skyrunner 
campaign, hmmmm?????? :)

Scott

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 11:11:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Construction

On 15 Jul 96 at 3:42, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In somewhere mysterious you write:
>
> > On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Charles Pratt wrote:
> >> And a self-help book entitled _How to Suspend Your Disbelief_.
> >
> > If we made Traveller as realistic as possible - meaning that there
were
> > no obvious holes in the setting, technology, etc. - would it still be
fun?
>
> If we did it *right* it would be.                                            

Who defines "Doing it right"?  No matter how it is done, to be sci fi
liberties arer going to be taken.  Otherwise we would have a game where
the players are limited to chemical rockets, nuclear fission, and lead
slug throwers.  Realistic, but not a good setting for the far future.

Again, who defines "the right way" to do it??

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "P. ENGEBOS" <pengebos@NMSU.Edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 09:13:43 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Construction

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Not for too many of your players.  Pretty soon you'd wind up having 
> 1000 page rule books, devoting a voluminous number of pages to explanation 
> of a pseudo-scientific concept that currently is impossible using present 
> day physics.  It doesn't matter how much time, volume of pages, or 
> money you poor at it, the thing is called science FICTION...

I agree.

> 
> Suspension of disbelief does have to come into play somewhere.  Jump 
> drive, Maneuver drive (thrusters or HEPlaR), meson guns, PAWs, don't 
> exist...  They probably won't exist in our lifetimes...if ever...
>
> If you don't suspend disbelief somewhere...think about what you have 
> left...  present day guns, missiles, vehicles...landbound on 1 
> system...because there is no effective means currently for getting to 
> Mars, let alone Alpha Centauri...  We don't even have the 
> technology to establish a colony on the moon...
>
more good points.  Go Stu, Go!
 
> As for simulating an economic system good luck!  No 2 economists 
> can really design an economic model that simulates a world economy 
> effectively, and agree on it...  I remember an old joke about 2
> economists trying to design a Trivial Pursuit game based on 
> economics.  They came up with a game that had 3000 questions, and 
> about 12,000 right answers...

As an economist, I should take exception, but you're right..


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #254
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"subscribe" command; for example, to subscribe "local-traveller":

subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".
